In the fall, we told you about Tennessee and other states that enacted laws allowing patrons with permits to bring handguns into bars, provided they don’t drink. There’s follow-up from Virginia showing that gun crimes at bars and restaurants declined in the year after a concealed-carry law took effect. The Richmond Times-Dispatch analyzed statistics since the law changed and found that gun crimes at businesses that serve alcohol dropped 5.2%. The data also revealed that few gun crimes that were committed involved people who were lawfully carrying weapons.
Proponents weren’t surprised at the data. “The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. On the other side, the numbers didn’t sway opponents, including lobbyist Tom Fisk of the Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association. Fisk cited a case in which a bar patron broke the law by drinking while carrying a gun, then threatened a waitress and another concealed carrier, who accidentally shot himself while reaching into his pocket for cash.
The jury’s still out in other states. Columbus, Ohio, lawyer Jack D’Aurora’s Columbus Dispatch commentary last month argues that the state’s law is unlikely to reduce crime. D’Aurora cited a 2003 study showing that such laws correlate with higher crime, and he disagreed with the argument that armed law-abiding citizens serve as a deterrent to would-be criminals. He also wondered whether most citizens are equipped and trained to use their weapons in self-defense.
Do you think the numbers show it’s safe to allow guns in bars, or is the jury still out for you? Tell us in the comments.
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There is more evidence to show it is safe than that it increases danger. In light of the lack of clear evidence of increased danger, it only makes sense to treat law abiding adults like law abiding adults. If someone feels safer carrying a gun and they are properly qualified, I have no problem with it. If a bar owner has problems with it, the owner should be able to impose any rule or restriction he wants.
There are innumerable studies that show crime decreases with concealed carry, as well as just more armed citizens having guns in the home. I'll give you one that should get past the political rhetoric – The FBI.
Spice54 is right on target (Pun intended) with his comments. More law abiding citizens carrying the better!
I'm not sure I agree with this. It seems like the evidence isn't overwhelming for either position:
@Preston – Quantify "properly qualified" for me and provide an example scenario where a bar owner would be able to distinguish between someone "properly qualified" and someone who could be a danger to themselves and patrons. This is the kind of thing that could potentially ruin business owners' ability to attract patrons if a gun crime occurs at their business (I don't know about you, but I tend to shy away from places where I know people have been shot).
@Spice54 – Not sure what your point is about the FBI. Are you saying that the FBI is proof that concealed carry works? If so, your argument would be stronger if you weren't comparing federal law enforcement personnel with the average gun-toting truck driver. Their level of continuous (that's an important distinction) training and experience dealing with high-pressure and hostile situations far exceeds that of the average gun owner.
@TheSaltPig – Everyone's a "law abiding citizen"… until they're not. People are the most unpredictable things in the world. To assume that a "law abiding citizen" wouldn't shoot someone in error or commit a "crime of passion" if they have a gun within reach is giving people way too much credit (like assuming Americans would be financially responsible if they were given cheap and easy credit. We see where that got us…). Like the old saying goes: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." Think about the climate in America right now: frustrated, out of work, angry, depressed, exploited. Are those the kinds of people you want carrying weapons? Given the opportunity, people will abuse power. If you put the power to take a life in the hands of every man and woman (we'll leave kids out of this since I don't want to muddy the issue talking about children and the number of accidental gun deaths n the US every year), that exponentially increases the chances of someone being seriously injured or killed. I'd like to see it your way, but I don't think I have as much faith in the average American as you.
Thoughts?
@McNasty – there is one thing which can stop "frustrated, out of work, angry, depressed, exploited" from abusing power and killing people: the knowledge that there are less or the same "frustrated, out of work, angry, depressed, exploited" who have guns and will use them to protect themselves.
"Guns don't kill people." – people with illegal guns and kitchen knifes kill people.
Hey McNasty,
"Are those the kinds of people you want carrying weapons?" I have news for you…they already are. Every time you go to a movie, or a grocery store or a public park there are people all around you already carrying weapons. wake up
Besides early "evidence" showing it's safe to "allow" guns in bars, I must reiterate what an earlier commenter stated. Even where not permitted by law, guns are already in bars and other establishments. The difference is, by allowing properly permitted individuals to legally carry, we may change the ratio a bit between those who are legally carrying versus those who are not.
The notion promulgated by the anti-gun hoard that more legal guns equal more crime rings hollow, lacking true substance and ignoring logic. Being nothing more than emotion filled rhetoric with a cleverly manipulated statistic thrown in now and then.
Keep in mind, the criminals already have guns. The reason various prohibitions and bans on weapons, or anything else for that matter, don't work, is because the very nature of being a criminal, is being a lawbreaker; one who disregards rules and order. So just think about it for a moment.
Does anyone really think a criminal would say, gee, you know what, I was gonna take my gun into that bar, but damn, they're illegal in there, so I best not? Get real people. The time to stop empowering criminals, and return our God given rights to the citizens is now.